Bill Maloney and Chris Fay interview transcript

[BILL] My name is Bill Maloney and I'm a documentary film maker and also a victim of institutional child abuse. Institutional child abuse means within the care system- the government care system if you like, and today I'm going to be interviewing a guy called Chris Fay...and Chris, if you'd like to tell the audience who you are. [CHRIS] Yes. I'm the former adult advisor to the National Association of Young People In Care which was a group made up of kids who were in the care system round the country, and I was their adult advisor up until about 1992. [BILL] And what are we going to be talking about today Chris? [CHRIS] Oh, well where do you want to start Bill? [BILL] Well the main subject is..Elm Guest House. [CHRIS] Elm Guest House yes. 2.15 - Dr Adeline Stolper / Carol Kasir / Harry Kasir [CHRIS] It first came about when we were approached by a woman called Dr Adelaine Stolper who was a consultant psychiatrist at the Maudsley [sic] hospital, and she asked us would we... [BILL] [interrupting] That's in South West London? [CHRIS] That's in South West London....she asked us would we talk to a patient of hers whose name was Carole Kasir and her..her..the story being...her son had been taken off her and put into care and she hadn't been allowed access to him. When we did eventually get to talk to Carole Kasir we found out she was the owner of a guest house in Barnes in South West London from about 1977 to 1982 when it was closed following a police raid. [BILL] Why was it raided Chris? [CHRIS] Well that's...we never we never actually found out the reason because, as I said, Carole Kasir, backed up by her family and her solicitor maintained that the raid was carried out under the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1976. [BILL] In 1976? [CHRIS] Right. The 1976 Act, which means it was a security matter and the involvement of the security services. However, on the other side, the police and the authorities always maintained that the raid was carried out in response to complaints from neighbours under vice legislation. So you had police on one hand saying raiding it because it was being used as a brothel, and on the other hand you had the Kasirs, plus their lawyers and everybody else saying they were raided under the Prevention of Terrorism Act. It's the only law that was around then where the police could stop you seeing your solicitor for up to 36 hours. [BILL] In custody? So they hold you in custody? And I don't know if we said it but Carole Kasir was in fact the owner of Elm Guest House? [CHRIS] She was the owner. Her and her husband Harry. [BILL] So there's been a raid. [CHRIS] There's been a raid. They've given her what's called a notice to detain persons under the Act which says you're not allowed contact with anybody, even a solicitor, and that was the only piece of evidence that existed back in 1990 regarding the raid. There were no records of.... [BILL] [interrupting] So they gagged her, more of less. [CHRIS] They did, but the question then becomes why would they be raiding a guest house which was being used as a brothel under the Prevention of Terrorism Act? 5.40 - Anthony Blunt / Cmdr Richard Trestrail / Richard Langley / Paul Hendry / MI5 [CHRIS] Yeah, and there was also a thing we became aware of very, very quickly. One of the people who used that guest house was in fact Anthony Blunt. Anthony Blunt was the disgraced spy who'd been spying for the KGB for years. [BILL] For the Russians. [CHRIS] They gave him a free pardon and gave him a job as head of the Queen's pictures. Now Blunt, and that led us very quickly on to Commander Trestrail who was head of the royal protection squad. There was a guy called Richard Langley who was a senior aide at Buckingham Palace. Erm, there was a guy called Paul Hendry, who was a Commander for the Special Branch. Now Special Branch itself is no longer in existence - it's the anti-terrorism squad today , but back then they were the people who used to do the dirty work for MI5. [BILL] So, right, we're talking about now that MI5 was involved. [CHRIS] Oh they had to be. Because Special Branch were the people who did all the arrests on behalf of MI5. They were the ones that carried out the raids. [BILL] So what you're saying here is that it was the Terrorism Act was used because there were politicians and all these important people involved, and so the police were told by Secret Services "that's it". 8.00 - Kings & Queens parties [CHRIS] The sequence of events was, erm, that the abuse had started ...what had happened in 1977 the Silver Jubilee, they started events which they called Kings and Queens parties. Now at these Kings and Queens parties would be politicians, pop stars, whatever, where they would dress up in silly outfits 8:45 – NAYPIC [CHRIS] Yep, before you get to that you've got to remember what NAYPIC was. We were about kids. We were not about investigating politicians or doing the work of the police. [BILL] What does NAYPIC stand for? [CHRIS] National Association of Young People in Care. 9.00 - Neil Kier / John Stingemore [CHRIS] It was about kids in care, so if you're going to do it, if you're going to provide boys that had to be organised and run by somebody within the care system within Richmond Council. Somebody was grooming and providing these boys to the Elm Guest House. So we very quickly got on to, the entire ring seemed to be centred around Grafton Close Children's Home where the officer in charge was called Neil Kier and his deputy was the guy who's just been arrested, John Stingemore. [BILL] So they, they were in charge of the kid's home. [CHRIS] But they were sexually abusing the boys and grooming them and providing them for sex. [BILL] So, so, they were sending the kids out so that the kids could be filmed for pornographic films, whatever they, whatever they wanted to do? And again I would like to stress that these are very vulnerable children. 11.00 - Donald Naismith [CHRIS] And so you had people like erm Donald Naismith who was Director of Education from, for Wandsworth. Stingemore was providing boys to him at £20 a time… [BILL] No! [shocked] 11:15 - Porn Videos and Photos / The Sauna/Video 'Facilities' [CHRIS] …for porno videos, yeah. So then when it comes to Elm Guest House, in Elm Guest House you had what was, what were known as the ‘facilities’. Now the facilities were a sauna room and what was called, grandly called, a video conference facility, but we are talking 1980… [BILL] They were filming the kids, whatever they were doing to the kids, they were filming the kids? [Chris nods] [CHRIS] So they were… but aside from that they would… it turned out later that there were two lots of things there were the, err, photographs and videos that were made in the video conference facility, which were being professionally edited and distributed to whoever buys this sort of stuff. But there were also photographs being taken by Carol Kasir herself, of the Kings & Queens parties. [BILL] So Carol Kasir was taking her own pictures as well? [Chris nods] [CHRIS] Carol Kasir was taking her own pictures, if you like, for her photo album… [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS]… Because she always presented herself as being a victim, she was the victim in all this, she had been taken advantage of by all these nasty people. [Sarcasm] The reality was, she was a cunning, cold, calculating woman. She knew exactly what had been going on in her guest house and she was quite happy to profit from it. Now bear in mind you are talking about a small guest house, in South West London, in 1980, I know from looking at the books, and I’ve still got copies of the paying in slips and all that, that guest house was turning over about £10,000 a month. 13.35 - Harvey Proctor / Leon Brittan / Cyril Smith / Colin Jordon / David Steele [BILL] Well let’s just give the audience the full flavour of the guest house. Right, so this was a brothel and they were making films of what they were doing to the kids… [CHRIS] Yeah. [BILL] …and they were, now you give us some of the names. [CHRIS] They were also, they were also providing kids. So some of the people that, erm, used to go there were people like, err, Harvey Proctor. [BILL] Who was? [CHRIS] Who was a senior Tory MP. He was later, a few years after Elm Guest House, he was later convicted for sexual offences against boys. You had people like Leon Brittan, who at the time I think, was a Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, but then became Home Secretary. You had Cyril Smith MP, who was there. You had people like Colin Jordan, who was the leader of the National Front, who was a very close friend of Harvey Proctor. Now those two in particular were into the really nasty end of child abuse. [BILL] Now if I can just say, I, I remember seeing an interview with David Steele, Member of Parliament and he was being questioned about the guy who you was just talking about, erm… [CHRIS] Cyril Smith [BILL] …Cyril Smith and he said ‘For God’s sake, I don’t know what all the fuss is about, all he was doing was smacking a few boy’s bottoms’. 16.45 - Gary Walker / Leon Brittan [BILL] But the thing is, they took Carol Kasir’s son into…10 years of age. [CHRIS] Hang on… yeah… yeah… one small important point, there was only 5 guests actually at the guest house because the day before Carol had been warned that the raid was coming, by a man called Gary Walker. Now Gary Walker was a senior member of Sinn Fein IRA, now if you are talking 1982 London, at the height of the bombing campaign, that the senior member of Sinn Fein IRA is walking around London, unobserved, unchallenged. [BILL] Going into Elm Guest House and meeting people like Leon Brittan. [CHRIS] Exactly. [BILL] For God sake, so we got Sinn Fein meeting Leon Brittan at Elm Guest House, where they were doing… [CHRIS] Yeah, which makes it, as you can appreciate once you get somebody like him in there, this is not a local vice raid. You cannot tell me that someone like Walker would be walking around London without being closely followed by Special Branch or MI5. He warned Carol Kasir the day before the raid, so he knew, Walker knew, Sinn Fein knew, that the raid was going to take place and after the raid had happened and Car… the Kasirs were on bail, Walker offered to provide Carol and her family with false birth certificates, false passports and get them out of the country. So it wasn’t just a local vice raid, that’s the point I am trying to make. 18.15 - Eric Kasir / Neil Kier / Carol Kasir [CHRIS] I knew who to complain to, how the system worked. Now, when the police, because they thought, they knew that Carol Kasir’s son, Eric, was 10, was living there. They also suspected and their own words ‘that other children might be present’ they approached Richmond Services, told them about the raid. Now procedure dictates that normally you would have got, say, the local field social worker in the local office who would have come in with the police on the raid. Any children present, they would have taken, they would have taken them into care. However, on the day of the raid, the man from Kingston, err from Richmond Council, who, who was on the raid with the police was Neil Kier, the officer in charge of Grafton, who took Eric into care. [BILL] That’s her son Eric? [CHRIS] That’s her son Eric. So you can understand why Carol was so angry. [BILL] So, so, she knew, she knew that all the kids were coming from this children’s home. Then what they done on the night of the raid was took her own child and put her own child in that children’s home. [CHRIS] Not only that, but with the very guy who had been one of the people supplying the boys, so Carol knew full well what that meant. 21.20 - David Hamilton Grant / Kings & Queens parties / Monday Club / Harvey Proctor / John Stamford / Peter Glencross / John Rowe / Michael Rowe (aka Captain Paul Reinhart) [BILL] And one thing we never touched on, also, in this video suite, there was also a regular visitor there and his name was David Hamilton Grant. David Hamilton Grant was a child pornographer. [CHRIS] Yeah. [BILL] He made child pornography and [CHRIS] Distributed it. [BILL] Distributed it [CHRIS] Yes. [BILL] and the possibility of snuff movies as well. [CHRIS] Yeah, but you need to understand where this starts from, and we're talking about ..if you're talking about the movies that were made in the video conference facility, but you have to broaden it out and understand the Kings and Queens parties. Now most of the people who attended the Kings and Queens parties were from organisations like The Monday Club. [BILL] And what was The Monday Club exactly? [CHRIS] The Monday Club was a right wing Tory party club for extreme right wing views, and people like Harvey Proctor belonged to it. All those sort of people belonged to it. Now one of the people who was involved with Carole Kasir, if you go back to prior to the raid, the evidence we've got, and indeed still have is The Monday Club paying for adverts in Capital Gay, which was the main gay newspaper in London. [BILL] Capital Gay. [CHRIS] Capital Gay. For the Elm Guest House. They were also paying for adverts to be put in a magazine called Spartacus. Now Spartacus was a magazine run by a man called John Stamford, who operated out of Holland. Stamford ran a European wide vice ring involving children. He was a known paedophile. He was a known maker of very nasty child pornography. [BILL] Torture. [CHRIS] When I say nasty I'm talking about pornography with two year olds and eighteen month old babies. CHRIS] So you had,... if you look at the photographs, even today in the press, of the Elm Guest House from the time, you'll see in the window of the doorway a sign that says Spartacus Club Members Welcome. [BILL] Right. [CHRIS] So Spartacus Members got a ten per cent discount. Now one of the things Stamford did with a man Peter... There was a man called Peter Glencross. Peter Glencross was the UK director of Spartacus. He ran the Spartacus organisation over here. Uh, he was very closely connected to the Monday Club, along with a guy called John Rowe that... … [CHRIS] [nodding] But you got to remember that you had people like John Rowe. You have the other people who paid for adverts in the Spartacus magazine and in Capital Gay. There was a company called RAWRO Investments Limited. Now, RAWRO Investment Limited was run by John Rowe's brother, Michael Rowe. He called himself Captain Paul Reinhart, but he never been in the armed forces. Just like to call himself Captain. So you had this whole organisation around the Elm Guest House. 28.50 - Geoffrey Dickens / Leon Brittan / Ken Clarke [CHRIS] So you had Geoffrey Dickens MP who produced a file on these paedophiles, naming... and had all the evidence, including their manifesto, which said sex with a four-year-old should be legalised. Geoffrey Dickens, in 1982, handed that file to the Home Secretary to be investigated. Who was the Home Secretary he handed it to? [BILL] Leon Brittan. [CHRIS] Leon Brittan. What's happened to that file? Nobody knows. Ask Leon Brittan today, as many journalists have, he fails to recollect being handed any such file. [BILL] That's the Home Secretary. [CHRIS] That's the Home Secretary. [BILL] Now, we've got another one. Home Secretary, who's been accused by a guy called Ben Fellows. How that's going to turn out, we'll all wait and see. And that is Kenneth Clarke. Kenneth Clarke is a paedophile. [CHRIS] Who fails to recollect. Now you have civil servants within the Home Office who say this file cannot be found. There is no record of this file ever being handed over. Yet it's in the... going to Hansard, you'll find that Geoffrey Dickens actually stood up in the House of Commons and spoke about it, so he can't deny that he hadn't received it. He just fails to recollect. So, on the one hand, you got, you've got these people who are trying to, for want of a better phrase, to legalise sex with infants, yeah? And on the other hand, you've got the people who were using this... I mean, it's about power. All paedophilia is about power. And about the abuse of power. 30.50 - John Stamford / Peter Glencross [CHRIS] So had, then, if you go back, come back to the guest house and Spartacus, you can see what was happening. Because, there was a separate organisation within Spartacus called Spartacus Club. Now the Spartacus Club was a paedophile organisation along the lines of P.I.E. And what Stamford and Glencross were trying to do was establish a series of guest houses around England which would be safe places for paedophiles to go. Not gay people, Paedophiles. 33.00 – The Care System [CHRIS] I think people, what people don't realise, people assume that if a child goes missing there'll be a hue and cry, yeah? [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] People will be complaining, they'll be out looking, they'll be on the front page of the newspapers, y'know. '7 year old boy has disappeared' – Like Madeleine McCann. Children in care as you and I well know historically don't exist as far as the public are concerned; they're taken into care, they're hidden away from the public [BILL] Because the institutions they distance the public from it because of what's been going on, there would be an outcry and it could bring the government down. [CHRIS] Right. But even more than that Bill, it comes down to how many children within the care system go missing every year. If you look at the way the system operates it, it appears to have safeguarding within it. [BILL] Yeah cos we're bringing it up to date, your bringing it up to date now. [CHRIS] No I'm talking about... [BILL] It's still going on. [CHRIS] It's still going on, but let's be clear in people's mind; people think of Social Workers and Social Services as being good things, they are the people who take care of that sort of thing, yeah, if children are being abused, who looks after them? It's Social Services. They're in care, they're safe, they're protected. [BILL] But we've got secret family courts [CHRIS] That's what people think, I'm not talking about reality, I'm talking about what people think [BILL] Absolutely. [CHRIS] Part of what people think is right, in that, if a child, if a kid goes on the run from a childrens' home then the staff in the home will fill out a missing persons report, hand that missing persons report to the Police, who'll stick it in a filing cabinet, yeah? Whether that kid comes back or not nobody knows. [BILL] It's happening all the time, but every now and again we'll read it in the papers 'there's a little girl gone missing, there's a little boy gone missing' they have to feed us every now and again, but the way they do it, they make it look like it's only very rare. [CHRIS] Within the care system it doesn't happen, nobody checks [BILL] They're missing every day [CHRIS] Nobody goes into those filing cabinets and says y'know, 'what happened to Fred, or what happened to Mary, or what happened... [BILL] They're gone, [CHRIS] they're just – and there's filing cabinets of the stuff that the Police eventually end up shredding and starting more files. So it's very, very easy for kids within the care system, particularly if they've got very little family in the community or very little contact, to just disappear. [BILL] Yeah but what they do, what they would do, they would filter the kids ; so if you've got kids like this kids and this kid their parents they're still very interested in them and they come and see them every now and again, don't touch them two. This kid's parents never come, this kid's parents never come, they've got no family, they're the two we want, so they've got a filter system, so they pick and choose the most vulnerable. 35:50 - Wardship Orders [CHRIS] Even more, even worse than that, you have the whole thing about the abuse of Wardship Orders, where you could put a ring of secrecy around a child and even somebody like NAYPIC [BILL] [interrupting] Are they still available Wardship Orders? Tell us how they work. [CHRIS] Well, they started to come in about the seventies, it's a very ancient... what used to happen in the old days if you were Lord Percy Sutton and Lord Percy got killed and you were underage, the, a Wardship order would be issued and a judge would take you on as his ward to protect your inheritance rights. That goes back to the sixteenth century or something, I can't remember exactly. But it became to, in the 1970s being a very easy way of getting kids into care. You didn't have to go to court you didn't have to argue in front of a magistrate, there wasn't lawyers for the other side, a social worker could go down to the High Court, quick word with the judge, get a Wardship Order, and take the kid, do what they like with them. So you didn't them have to worry about any other laws either if you wanted to lock the kid up you didn't have to go to court, a quick phone call to a high court judge. But also if, if the child was in say Richmond and you wanted to stick him in a childrens' home in North Wales no problem, you just took them up there. [BILL] Yeah? [CHRIS] So nobody would know where that child had gone, and if you've got somebody like NAYPIC asking questions you just threaten them with contempt 40.50 - Margaret Hodge / Islington / Haut de la Garenne / Jersey [BILL] But what I would also like to say is there was a very big case that was covered up, Margaret Hodges she was involved in that cover up, and err, where was it, that was in Islington, [CHRIS] Islington [BILL] A big case, and the kids were being taken from Islington out to Jersey to Haut de la Garenne and I would implore you all y'know to watch a film called Sun Sea and Satan, that Pie'n'Mash films, that we made, we went out to Jersey for two weeks. 42.20 - Carol Kasir / Kings & Queens parties [CHRIS] It got so bad at one point we actually had to go and use a community centre to meet young people. It was at that point because I was the adult advisor but I had to think about the welfare and safety bear in mind it was a group of young people, it was groups all round the country, I had to give consideration to their safety. So I went back to Carol Kasir and I said look 'If you want us to proceed with this and you want us to do something about it [BILL] I.e. get her child out of care [CHRIS] Out of care, and protect the younger kids I need evidence, I need whatever evidence you've got that you say to me 'all these people used to attend the Kings and Queens parties' or were using the facilities, I need to know what you've got. She, I think in March, yeah March 1990, she agreed to meet me and I went along to her flat in Richmond where she was living at the time, and in the flat she had a huge big cardboard box and in that cardboard box there were lots of documents there was some video tapes and other stuff in there, and it was at that point that she gave me the guest house registers, the paying, bank paying in books showing the money she'd received [BILL] So the guset house register had everyone's name that was going there but they weren't using their real names. 43.20 - Leon Brittan / Cyril Smith / Cliff Richard and his boyfriend Norman (aka Gladys) [CHRIS] Weren't using their real names, but by this time of course we knew who a lot of the aliases that people like Leon Brittan and Cyril Smith were using [BILL] Cliff Richard [CHRIS] Errr Cliff Richard was there as a guest I can't say he abused children there was no evidence [BILL] But he was there [CHRIS] He stayed there yeah [BILL] He definitely stayed there, Cliff Richard? [CHRIS] Yes [BILL] And what name did he go under on the book? [CHRIS] Oh I can't remember off the top off my head [BILL] Was it Gladys or something? [CHRIS] No Gladys was the nickname of his boyfriend Norman. [BILL] Cliff Richard's boyfriend? [CHRIS] Yeah Norman yeah [BILL] Norman was his boyfriend 44.45 - Leon Brittan / Harvey Proctor [CHRIS] So she showed me I think it was eight photographs in total of people, now it was two of Leon Brittan, there was, one of Harvey Proctor [BILL] Member of Parliament [CHRIS] Member of Parliament, there was another one of a very well known industrial financial guy there was a whole series of photographs and she had hundreds more in this show box, she wouldn't give them to me. I said, so I said to her, after a lot of wheeling and dealing, 45.15 - Leon Brittan photograph with naked 12 year old boy [BILL] Can we just explain, just give me a description of the Leon Brittan photograph that you saw? [CHRIS] The Leon Brittan photograph he was wearing, naked apart from like a little apron, and one of those waitress's caps, y'know what I mean, [BILL] O right so he had a maid's [CHRIS] A maid's outfit [BILL] A maid's pinny, a maid's hat [CHRIS] With a boy aged about 12 sitting on his lap. [BILL] What was the boy wearing? [CHRIS] Nothing [BILL] So the boy was naked [CHRIS] The boy was naked [BILL] Could you see the boy's genitalia? [CHRIS] Yeah. He was about twelve years old, I mean it was an obscene photograph by any body's standards 45.50 - Carol Kasir (alleged murder) [CHRIS] Yeah but, Carol Kasir as I keep trying to tell people was not some sort of innocent victim in all this, she was a conniving, cunning, bitch of a woman, [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] She really was, she knew exactly what she was doing so she would only give us enough to keep us involved, if you know what I mean [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] To keep on our good side, for want of a better phrase. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] And I said to her 'It's not good enough Carol I can't just y'know' [BILL] unless you give me the photos [CHRIS] unless you give me the stuff. She wouldn't do it. What she did eventually agree to do I think about six, eight weeks later she said I could come round and photograph them myself. [BILL] Right [CHRIS] But unfortunately of course shortly after that she was murdered, so [BILL] Right. So you never got to go round and photograph them but when you was there you were probably being recorded and bugged anyway by the secret services [CHRIS] They were sitting outside [BILL] Chris can we just jump to Carol Kasir cos you said like when she was murdered what was the information that came out in the press [CHRIS] Well [BILL] How she died [CHRIS] She allegedly according to the coroner she died from an overdose of insulin [BILL] Cos she was diabetic [CHRIS] Which was absolute rubbish [CHRIS] Yeah I'm just going to tell you. I was a witness, at the coroner's court, so I was there for all the proceedings. Now, the pathologist report was quite clear that the oldest syringe mark on her body was 72 hours old, and that was the last mark on her body of a syringe. Every doctor I spoke to, I spoke to a GP I spoke to the pathologists at the Kings College Hospital, they were all saying the same thing; if you overdose with insulin by injection, you'd be dead within an hour. There is no way you'd live for 72 hours [BILL] Right [CHRIS] So also a question mark about where this syringe mark was, which was on her bottom, and the evidence form the GP was that she never, was never given insulin that way, and even though he'd been to see her, he had injected her arm not her bottom. So where that injection mark had come from I don't know. There was also the alleged suicide note. Now, everybody that had read it myself, Mary at NAYPIC, her friends her family, [BILL] Mary's another lady who works at NAYPIC, [CHRIS] Mary Moss … [CHRIS] She was the worker at NAYPIC, a really good guy, and we all knew it was not Carol's handwriting, Carol didn't write that way she didn't , it wasn't her use of language 49.15 - David Issit / Patsy Puddles  [CHRIS] Now David Issit was a paedophile, if you look at the Mary Moss file that's been put on line of all the documents there, you'll see a, you'll see there that I phoned Richmond Police and Richmond Social Services departments when I found out that Issit was in fact living at home with his partner and four year old son because there was a court order banning him from within half a mile of his home and his son, because Issit and a guy, a gangster called Puddles, Patsy Puddles, ... [CHRIS] Yeah, had been abusing the four year old in their hot tub at Puddles' house, which was why there was a court order on him. So you had this, and he was a drug addict. And an alcoholic, and a thoroughly nasty piece of work, but he was the only one person who said that the hand writing was Carol Kasir's [BILL] On her suicide note 51.00 - Dr John Burton / Princess Diana / Clive Godden  [CHRIS] No, but the coroner, funnily enough, is the same coroner who did the Princess Diana inquest and also the Blair Peach inquest, in other words [interrupting] [BILL] while we're talking about that, if I can just, the Princess Diana, I'll do it that camera, is that in shot, is that camera in shot [Holding up Daily Express front page displaying the headline “PRINCESS DIANA WAS MURDERED”] [CHRIS] [Pointing] Doctor Burton [OFF CAMERA] [incoherent] [BILL] So there we've got, they're saying there 'Princess Diana was murdered'. [CHRIS] Yeah. But Doctor Burton was the guy who did her inquest so he was known as being a safe pair of hands, someone you can trust to come up with the right verdict. Now at this point you've met Clive Godden who's a private detective who was looking at this stuff, bless his cotton socks he's a lovely bloke as you know, and he kept bouncing up and down in the coroner's inquest saying 'That's not true, what are you talking about?' and the coroner kept saying to him 'Will you sit down please and be quiet Mr Godden. … [CHRIS] He's now 78. I started protesting about the note, Clive kept screaming and shouting at the coroner so in the end the coroner said 'I'll adjourn the inquest until August, and I'll have Scotland Yard's forensic handwriting experts take a look at the note', to see whether or not it's in her handwriting [BILL] it was her handwriting yeah [CHRIS] So when the August, when the inquest was reopened again on the 22nd August Burton the coroner came in and he said 'Right I've issued a written verdict there's nothing more to say.' Bang, case closed. [BILL] So wait till August and that was it [CHRIS] Nothing so, to the, to this day I do not know what the forensic handwriting experts at Scotland Yard had to say nobody did because Burton never told us. … 52.35 – Tom Watson / PMQs / D-Notice / Leon Brittan / Harvey Proctor [CHRIS] the one interesting thing above all else, when Tom Watson asked a question in the House of Commons recently, as you know [BILL] Member of Parliament [CHRIS] Member of Parliament, he also asked about the use of D-Notices. D-Notices are notices that they're supposed to be advisory, but basically the government doesn't like a story in the newspapers about to print, it'll slap a D-Notice [BILL] A D-Notice is a gagging order [CHRIS] is a gagging order. Now when Mary Moss and I left the coroner's court the entire world's press was outside, obviously it was a very, very big story [BILL] Absolutely [CHRIS] Because we'd stood in the witness box, we'd named Leon Brittan we'd named Harvey Proctor, we'd told the inquest all the evidence we had about who'd been involved at the Elm Guest House, so by any stretch of the imagination it was big news story. When we got outside the coroner's court there was, they were all there, BBC, ITV, Channel Four, Sky, you name it. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] Not one single British television station, radio station or newspaper interviewed myself or Mary. We were interviewed by Canadian Broadcasting Radio and a Japanese television station, and [BILL] [Laughs] [CHRIS] I spotted the BBC reporter who I knew and I went across to him and I said 'What's going on?' and he said 'D-Notice Chris' [BILL] D-Notice [CHRIS] So D-Notices were used 55.10 - Monday Club / Toffs' Travels Limited / Holland / snuff movies [CHRIS] We found out y'know that there was a connected with the Monday Club and Spartacus. There was a company called Toffs Travels Limited which was physically taking boys in care out to Holland [BILL] Or wherever [CHRIS] Well they were definitely going to Holland [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] And it was in Holland we had quite a lot of evidence that snuff movies were being made [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] Now, y'know, we tried as an organisation to be as professional and as as reasonable as we could and we checked out everything that we told to the best of our ability. Now, I didn't know whether snuff movies existed or not it wasn't my area of expertise. So I in fact talked to, and I think in the NAYPIC log book which, which we gave to Fernbridge, Fernbridge took off me, that's Operation Fernbridge the Police investigation that's looking at Grafton and Elm. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] And I spoke to Interpol, Europol, the FBI, any organisation, the United Nations Child Exploitation and the European one, about snuff movies, and the official view in 1990 of all those organisations including the Metropolitan Police was that snuff movies did not exist. 57.55 - Tom Watson / DCI Paul Settle / Operation Fernbridge [CHRIS] So, I've retired. As far as I was concerned, this was all in the past for me. But, I was approached by Tom Watson, who wanted me. So I went up to see him in the House of Commons and he told him basically what we've been talking about now. Everything I knew about Grafton, about Elm Guest House and about a lot of other abuse. [BILL] And what was his response? [CHRIS] Oh, he was shocked and horrified. [BILL] And what has he done? [CHRIS] He... He did... He was instrumental in getting the Metropolitan Police to establish Operation Fairbanks, which was the original investigation to look... established, I think, in October last year, that was going to... a scoping exercise to try and see... [BILL] What was Fairbank about? [CHRIS] Fairbank... That's what I'm saying. It was a scoping exercise to see what information was available. As a result of Fairbank, they set up Operation Fernbridge to Chief Inspector Paul Settle... [BILL] And that... Operation Fernbridge is solely about the guest house. [CHRIS] Solely about Elm Guest House and about Grafton. [BILL] Yes. [CHRIS] Although it has spawned... I mean these operations seem to spawn like rabbits. There is now yet another investigation coming out, that called Operation Cowi-...weird name... Coyote or something like that. [BILL] So, you told Tom Watson... [CHRIS] So I told Tom Watson. So then I was approached by DCI Settle, who came to see me at my home, I think, in January of this year. [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] He wanted, obviously, to know what I knew, and he wanted any documentation that I might still have. Well, as it happens, I still had the... You know, NAYPIC log book in which there's a lot of stuff. I also had the original charge sheets for... Not copies, but the originals, of Carole Kasir's charge sheet. So, I... [BILL] Have you still got it? [CHRIS] Yeah. [BILL] Good. [CHRIS]Yeah. Um, because I felt that stuff was important, because it... it... The whole... The whole of this thing hangs around, it seems to me, whether or not they raided the house under the Prevention of Terrorism Act or under vice legislation. Now, Settle and Fernbridge are saying that it was, that... They're towing the Party line. They're saying it was an operation carried out by local police under vice legislation. [BILL] Where'd the Terrorism thing come in? [CHRIS] Well, hang on a sec Bill, I'll get to that. But, this is the line being peddled by... Now, I asked him point blank, whether or not there is evidence. 'If you're going to say this. There has to be evidence.' But apparently, the police records of the raid are no longer available. They've disappeared. [BILL] Disappeared. [CHRIS] Not surprisingly. [BILL] Disintegrated. [CHRIS] Disintegrated. Gone to the... [BILL] Spontaneous combustion. [CHRIS] Warehouse in the Sky. [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] And the thing that shocked me most of all was that even the records of their trial at the Old Bailey no longer exist. I didn't... [BILL] Gone. Wiped. Everything. [CHRIS] I didn't realise until Settle told me this, that the, um... her Majesty's Courts and Tribunal Services only keep court records for ten years. After ten years, they're destroyed. I mean, I couldn't believe this, because... I mean, you, I,... [BILL] I don't believe it. [CHRIS] All of us. You go to the public archives, and you can read about the trial of Dr. Crippen, a hundred years ago. [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] In detail. But... [BILL] They know that. They don't want people reading about them in a hundred years time. [CHRIS] But what happened in 1982 doesn't exist anymore. They can point out what happened in 1912, but not in 1982! [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] Extraordinary. 1.04.00 - Tom Savage / David Hamilton Grant CHRIS] With people like yourself and other good people on the line who've got all the story. They've got all the facts. So whatever happens to me, they won't be allowed to cover it up. [BILL] Well, let me just finish up with something personal then. Alright? (To Camera) I FUCKING HATE THE NATIONAL MEDIA. [CHRIS] (laughs) [BILL]You've been covering up this shit for so many years. And you reporters. Where's Tom Savage? What's happened to Tom Savage? Tom Savage came and saw the original interview that I've done with Chris Fay. And all of the sudden, Tom has been suspended. [CHRIS] Nicked. [BILL] Nicked. Under another charge, nothing to do with us, even though he went out to Cyprus and he was investigating child pornography, snuff movies, looking for David Hamilton-Grant. David Hamilton-Grant is supposed to be dead, but he's not dead. He's alive and kicking and he's out in Turkey. And he was making pornographic films of children out in Turkey. Because where ha had to pay 500 quid for a kid here, he used to be able to get them for a fiver out there. END CREDITS: Thanks to everyone involved in the making of this film who wish to remain anonymous. GOD BLESS ALL VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS Pie and Mash Films 2013 www.piemashfilms.com *** Transcribed by Dopey, Sweetcheeks, Troyhand and White Horse, timings after NickC, many thanks to all for the shared effort! ***