Elm Guest House Scandal how child abuse is used for profit by the rich and powerful

Elm Guest House Interview  between Bill Maloney and Chris Fay a child abuse  expert at the heart of the Elm Guest House scandal 

This transcript details the full and shocking on-going cover-up  of horrific child abuse and the child porn trade,  including snuff videos.  Yes the people who make laws for you to follow really are that evil! [BILL] My name is Bill Maloney and I'm a documentary film maker and  also a victim of institutional child abuse. Institutional child abuse  means within the care system- the government care system if you like,  and today I'm going to be interviewing a guy called Chris Fay ...and Chris, if you'd like to tell the audience who you are. [CHRIS] Yes. I'm the former adult advisor to the National Association  of Young People In Care which was a group made up of kids who  were in the care system round the country, and I was their adult  advisor up until about 1992. [BILL] And what are we going to be talking about today Chris? [CHRIS] Oh, well where do you want to start Bill? [BILL] Well the main subject is..Elm Guest House. CHRIS] Elm Guest House yes. [BILL] Ok, so you can kick off you tell me all about Elm Guest House. [CHRIS] It first came about when we were approached by a woman called  Dr Adelaine Stolper who was a consultant psychiatrist at the Maudsley [sic] hospital, and she asked us would we... [BILL] [interrupting] That's in South East London? [CHRIS] That's in South East London....she asked us would we talk to  a patient of hers whose name was Carole Kasir and her..her..the story  being...her son had been taken off her and put into care and she hadn't  been allowed access to him. When we did eventually get to talk to Carole Kasir we found out she was  the owner of a guest house in Barnes in South West London from about  1977 to 1982 when it was closed following a police raid. [BILL] And that was Elm Guest House? [CHRIS] Elm Guest House. Now... [BILL] [interrupting] In Barnes [CHRIS] In Barnes, yep. South West London. Now, according to Carole Kasir  the raid has been carried out by Special Branch with the SPG, which is the  Special Patrol Group. [BILL] Why was it raided Chris? [CHRIS] Well that's...we never we never actually found out the reason because, as I said, Carole Kasir, backed up by her family and her solicitor maintained that the raid was carried out under the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1976. [BILL] In 1976? [CHRIS] Right. The 1976 Act, which means it was a security matter and the involvement of the security services. However, on the other side, the police and the authorities always maintained that the raid was carried out in response to complaints from neighbours and anti-vice legislation. So you had police on one hand saying raiding it because it was being used as a brothel, and on the other hand you had the Kasirs, plus their lawyers and everybody else saying they were raided under the Prevention of Terrorism Act. It's the only law that was around then where the police could stop you seeing your solicitor for up to 36 hours. [BILL] In custody? So they hold you in custody? And I don't know if we said it but Carole Kasir was in fact the owner of Elm Guest House? [CHRIS] She was the owner. Her and her husband Harry. [BILL] So there's been a raid. [CHRIS] There's been a raid. They've given her what's called a notice to detain persons under the Act which says you're not allowed contact with anybody , not even a solicitor, and that was the only piece of evidence that existed back in 1990 regarding the raid. There were no records of.... [BILL] [interrupting] So they gagged her, more of less. [CHRIS] They did, but..but..the question then becomes why would they be raiding a guest house which was being used as a brothel under the Prevention of Terrorism Act? [BILL] Right. [CHRIS] So then..then...that's when it started to become really, really dodgy because very, very soon we discovered who some of these patrons of their brothel were. [BILL] Yeah, and they were very important people. [CHRIS] Very important. [BILL] Politicians [CHRIS] Politicians [BILL] Film stars. [CHRIS] Yes. [BILL] Entertainers. [CHRIS] Yeah, and there was also a thing we became aware of very, very quickly. One of the people who used that guest house was in fact Anthony Blunt. Anthony Blunt was the disgraced spy who'd been spying for the KGB for years. [BILL] For the Russians. [CHRIS] They gave him a free pardon and gave him a job as head of the Queen's pictures. Now Blunt, and that led us very quickly on to Commander Trestrail who was head of the royal protection squad. There was a guy called Richard Langley who was a senior aide at Buckingham Palace. Erm, there was a guy called Paul Hendry, who was a Commander for the Special Branch. Now Special Branch itself is no longer in existence - it's the anti-terrorism squad today , but back then they were the people who used to do the dirty work for MI5. [BILL] So, right, we're talking about now that MI5 was involved. [CHRIS] Oh they had to be. Special Branch were the people who did all the arrests on behalf of MI5. They were the ones that carried out the raids. [BILL] So what you're saying here is that it was, erm, the Terrorism Act was used because there were politicians and all these important people involved, and so the police were told by Secret Services "that's it". [CHRIS] Yes, that's what I was going to say. You have to remember what NAYPIC was about. It was about young people in care and our job really was to ensure that, you know, the kids had the right to complain, to have their complaints taken seriously, and to be properly investigated- be it the local authority, police or whoever..and..very soon after Carole Kasir came to see us we were approached by a number of young people who had been in the care of Richmond Council. [BILL] What we're getting at here really is that erm the kids erm, well, Elm Guest House was..was a child brothel. [CHRIS] Yes it was. [BILL] That's what it was. So now we're talking about where the kids came from really. [CHRIS] Yes. It had been opened as a gay guest house but very quickly turned into a brothel. [BILL] Oh right. [CHRIS] There's no question about that. [BILL] So perhaps the gay guest house was even like a bit of a cover for it. [CHRIS] The sequence of events was, erm, that the abuse had started ...what had happened in 1977 the Silver Jubilee, they started events which they called Kings and Queens parties. Now at these Kings and Queens parties would be politicians, pop stars, whatever, where they would dress up in silly outfits [BILL] [interrupts] Kings and Queens and like, so because it was gay they would dress up as women and, and.. [CHRIS] And maids, and whatever [BILL] And when you're saying it happened...that it started [CHRIS** It started... [BILL] , around the Jubilee. [CHRIS] Around the Silver Jubilee. [BILL] Around the Silver Jubilee. [CHRIS] And very quickly became a regular event. [BILL] So, the Kings and Queens parties. [CHRIS] The Kings and Queens parties. Now... [BILL] [interrupts] What were they exactly? [CHRIS] Yep, before you get to that you've got to remember what NAYPIC was. We were about kids. We were not about investigating politicians or doing the work of the police. [BILL] What does NAYPIC stand for? [CHRIS] National Association of Young People in Care. [BILL] Right. (9:23 Grafton Close mention) [CHRIS] It was about kids in care, so if you're going to do it, if you're going to provide boys that had to be organised and run by somebody within the care system within Richmond Council. Somebody was grooming and providing these boys to the Elm Guest House. So we very quickly got on to, the entire ring seemed to be centred around Grafton Close Children's Home where the officer in charge was called Neil Kier and his deputy was the guy who's just been arrested, John Stingemore. [BILL] So they, they were in charge of the kid's home. [CHRIS] They were in charge of the kid's home, and they were the ones who were not just... [BILL] [interrupts] Was it just a boys home or was it..? [CHRIS] It was just a boys home, in London. [BILL] Ok. [CHRIS] They were sexually abusing the boys and grooming them and providing them for sex. 9:51 21:00 [BILL] By taking her son? [CHRIS] By putting him in Grafton. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] Because she understood exactly what was.. [BILL] [interrupts] Grafton was one of many supermarkets [CHRIS] Yeah. If..yeah, exactly. [BILL] For children [CHRIS] Exactly. [BILL] To do what they want. [CHRIS] Yeah exactly. [BILL] And one thing we never touched on, also, in this video suite, there was also a regular visitor there and his name was David Hamilton Grant. David Hamilton Grant was a child pornographer. [CHRIS] Yeah. [BILL] He made child pornography and ..? [CHRIS] Distributed it. [BILL] Distributed it [CHRIS] Yes. [BILL] , and the possibility of snuff movies as well. [CHRIS] Yep. [BILL] Now, the snuff movies for peop...if they don't know, is the kids being killed, tortured .. [CHRIS] Yeah, but you need to understand where this starts from, and we're talking about ..if you're talking about the movies that were made in the video conference facility, but you have to broaden it out and understand the Kings and Queens parties. Now most of the people who attended the Kings and Queens parties were from organisations like The Monday Club. [BILL] And what was The Monday Club exactly? [CHRIS] The Monday Club was a right wing Tory party club for extreme right wing views, and people like Harvey Proctor belonged to it. All those sort of people belonged to it. Now one of the people who was involved with Carole Kasir, if you go back prior to the raid, the evidence we've got, and indeed still have is The Monday Club paying for adverts in Capital Gay, which was the main gay newspaper in London. [BILL] Capital Gay. [CHRIS] Capital Gay. For the Elm Guest House. They were also paying for adverts to be put in a magazine called Spartacus. Now Spartacus was a magazine run by a man called John Stamford, who operated out of Holland. Stamford ran an European wide vice ring involving children. He was a known paedophile. He was a known maker of very nasty child pornography. [BILL] Torture. [CHRIS] When I say nasty I'm talking about pornography with two year olds and eighteen month old babies. [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] You know, that was the kind of guy he was. 23:28 [CHRIS] So you had,... if you look at the photographs, even today of the press, of the Elm Guest House from the time, you'll see in the window of the doorway a sign that says Spartacus Club Member, welcome. [BILL] Right. [CHRIS] So Spartacus Members got a ten per cent discount. Now one of the things Stamford did with a man Peter... There was a man called Peter Glencross. Peter Glencross was the UK director of Spartacus. He ran the Spartacus organisation over here. Uh, he was very closely connected to the Monday Club, along with a guy called John Rowe that... [BILL] Was the Monday Club just in Elm Guest House or was it another thing outside...? [CHRIS] It was outside. It was a country-wide... It was the right-wing of the Tory party. [BILL] Yeah, right. Ok. [CHRIS] The Monday Club was actually...it was in the House of Commons itself. [BILL] So, we're talking about all of them. We're not just talking about Labour? [CHRIS] No, no. [BILL] So we're talking the Tories. We're talking all of them. [CHRIS] [nodding] B But you got to remember that you had people like John Rowe. You have the other people who made adverts in the Spartacus magazine and in Capital Gay. There was a company called RAWRO Investments Limited. Now, RAWRO Investment Limited was run by John Rowe's brother, Michael Rowe. He called himself Captain Paul Reinhart, but he never been in the armed forces. Just like to call himself Captain. So you had this whole organisation around the Elm Guest House. So when you're talking about the nasty end of the snuff movies, that is where Spartacus came in. Now... [BILL] So, what I want the audience to understand with this is we're not talking about lower-class, ignorant people here. We're talking about well-educated individuals. We're talking about people in very high, powerful, predominant positions in all fields, whether they were doctors, psychiatrists, police officers, army, secret service, Members of Parliament and, of course, the entertainment industry, who they seem to be putting out front at the moment. And giving us these pissy, little wankers, like Michael Le Vell, whose name is Michael Truman... [CHRIS] Turner. [BILL] Turner, Michael Turner. [CHRIS] But you... Bill, you've got to remember at the time... [BILL] But these were educated people... [CHRIS] Hang on. You still got to put it in context. The context of the time was... You had genuine gay organisations who were campaigning for gay rights. But they had been totally infiltrated by paedophiles. You had the Paedophile Information Exchange, the infamous PIE. They had totally infiltrated groups like the Campaign for Homosexual Equality... the Conservative group, Campaign for Homosexual Equality, OLGA even what's now, Liberty. You had all these people campaigning for gay rights. Also campaigning to have paedophiles also treated as an "oppressed minority." [BILL] Yes...almost as victims. [CHRIS] So... Yes. Victims. That's how they saw themselves. Victims. So you had these people within all these organisations. They were very, very clever. They were well-financed. As you say, most of them were well-educated... [BILL] Untouchable. [CHRIS] Oh, a lot of them were. [BILL] But if I could just say, they got... one of the things... I get back to the little things like this, but is that, what it is, is... for a grown man to penetrate a newborn baby and possibly, whatever... that... the audience, they can't get that. To make a film where you kill a child, torture a child, whether it's a baby, whether it... of children, ok? And to make a film of the torture, the face, because they like the expressions on the face, the screaming of the kid. It's... what were they... what kind of people are these? These are... we're talking about people who are running society, running things and telling us how to live. How... Us!... How to fucking live! Sorry about that, but I get angry about it, you know what I mean. [CHRIS] That... down a notch. You come back to say, you, like me, like everybody else, gets so angry at even the thought of anybody touching a four-year-old child. These were people who seriously believed that four-year-old children have sexual feelings and had the "right," as they put it, to express those feelings. In other words, it's perfectly natural for four-year-olds to be having sex with grown-ups. This is what the paedophile mind set was. People were trying to get this taken seriously that this was ok. So you had Geoffrey Dickens MP who produced a file on the paedophiles, naming... and had all the evidence, including their manifesto, which said sex with a four-year-old should be legalised. Geoffrey Dickens, in 1982, handed that file to the Home Secretary to be investigated. Who was the Home Secretary he handed it to? [BILL] Leon Brittan. [CHRIS] Leon Brittan. What's happened to that file? Nobody knows. Ask Leon Brittan today, as many journalists have, he fails to recollect being handed any such file. [BILL] That's the Home Secretary. [CHRIS] That's the Home Secretary. [BILL] Now, we got another one. Home Secretary, who's been accused by a guy called Ben Fellows. How that's going to turn out, we'll all wait and see. And that is Kenneth Clarke. Kenneth Clarke is a paedophile. [CHRIS] Who fails to recollect. Now you have civil servants within the Home Office who say this file cannot be found. There is no record of this file ever being handed over. Yet it's in the... going to Hansard, you'll find that Geoffrey Dickens actually stood up in the House of Commons and spoke about it, so he can't deny that he hadn't received it. He just fails to recollect. So, on the one hand, you got, you've got these people who are trying to, for want of a better phrase, to legalise sex with infants, yeah? And on the other hand, you've got the people who were using this... I mean, it's about power. All paedophilia is about power. And about the abuse of power. So had, then, if you go back, come back to the guest house and Spartacus, you can see what was happening. Because, there was a separate organisation in Spartacus called Spartacus Club. Now the Spartacus Club was a paedophile organisation along the lines of P.I.E. And what Stamford and Glencross were trying to do was establish a series of guest houses around England which would be safe places for paedophiles to go. Not gay people, Paedophiles. [BILL] Well, then... That's right. Because, you know,...It's all... People were saying, Elm Guest House, as though it was the only one. I believe they were all over the place. All over this country. And we just discovered now, it's discovered... [CHRIS] And Europe. [BILL] And Europe. The whole world actually where... But it's just come out in Florida, which is next to Alabama. They're saying, they've found, um, children's bodies in an ex-borstal, children's borstal in Florida. They've... And they expect to find up to a hundred children's bodies. Now, that's what I'm bringing, me personally to the arena in this country, is that they're are children's homes, no doubt in my mind, that have been standing for many, many years, back to beyond Victorian times, and I believe there are children buried there. Because today's victims are tomorrow witnesses, and when you got powerful people like that, like Leon Brittan. If you got film of him abusing a child, he will do whatever you want. Therefore, I also believe that world politics is being controlled via blackmail, paedophilia, by blackmailing these people. So paedophilia is really... you know, a lot of the public would say, as long as my kids are alright. It's not that. Because it's not just affecting your kids. It's affecting your politics of your country, the way you live, the way they allow you to live, what taxes they take off you. It's all take, take, take. Keeping our heads so we don't know whether we're coming or going. The average person is just, get up to work, get back from work, go to work, pay your taxes, the BBC, pay this, pay that. So, people haven't really got the time to understand how everything does really affect them. 33:00 [CHRIS] I think people, what people don't realise, people assume that if a child goes missing there'll be a hue and cry, yeah? [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] People will be complainging, they'll be out looking, they'll be on the front page of the newspapers, y'know. '7 year old boy has disappered' – Like Madelleie McCann. Children in care like you and I well know historically don't exist as far as the public are concerned; they're taken into care, they're hidden away from the public [BILL] Because the institutions they distance the public from it because fo what's been going on, there would be an outcry and it could bring the government down. [CHRIS] Right. But even more than that Bill, it comes down to how many children within the care system go missing every year. If you look at the way the system opperates, it, it appears to have safeguarding within it. [BILL] Yeah cos we're bringing it up to date, your brining it up to date now. [CHRIS] No I'm talking about... [BILL] It's still going on. [CHRIS] It's still going on, but let's be clear in people's mind; people think of Social Workers and Social Services as being good things, they are the people who take care of that sort of thing, yeah, if children are being abused, who looks after them? It's Social Services. They're in care, they're safe, they're protected. [BILL] But we've got secret family courts [CHRIS] That's what people think, I'm not talking about reality, I'm talking about what people think [BILL] Absolutely. [CHRIS] Part of what people think is right, in that, if a child, if a kid goes on the run from a childrens' home then the staff in the home will fill out a missing persons report, hand that missing persons report to the Police, who'll stick it in a filing cabinet, yeah? Whether that kid comes back or not nobody knows. [BILL] It's happening all the time, everynow and again we'll read it in the papers 'there's a little girl gone missing, there's a little boy gone missing' they have to feed us every now and again, but the way they do it, they make it look like it's only very rare. [CHRIS] Within the care system it doesn't happen, nobody checks [BILL] They're missing every day [CHRIS] Nobody goes into those filing cabinets and says y'know, 'what happened to Fred, or what happened to Mary, or what happened... [BILL] They're gone, [CHRIS] they're just – and there's filing cabinets of the stuff that the Police eventually end up shredding and starting more files. So it's very, very easy for kids within the care system, particularly if they've got very little family in the community or very little contact, to just disappear. [BILL] Yeah but what theydo, what they would do, they would filter the kids ; so if you've got kids like this kids and this kid their parents they're still very interested in them and they come and see them every now and again, don't touch them two. This kid's parents never come,this kid's parents never come, they've got no family, they're the two we want, so they've got a filter system, so they can choose the most vulnerable. [CHRIS] Even more, even worse than that, you have the whole thing about the abuse of wardship orders, where you could put a ring of secrecy around a child and even somebody like NAYPIC [BILL] [interrupting] Are they still availabel wardship orders? Tell us how they work. [CHRIS] Well, they started to come in about the seventies, it's a very ancient... what used to happen in the old days if you were Lord Percy Sutton and Lord Percy got killed and you were underage, the, a wardship order would be issuied and a judge would take you on as his ward to protect your inheritence rights. That goes back to the sixteenth century or something, I can't remember exactly. But it became to, in the 1970s being a very easy way of getting kids into care. You didn't have to go to court you didn't have to argue in front of a magistrate, there wasn't lawyers for the other side, a social worker could go down to the High Court, quick word with the judge, get a wardship order, and take the kid, do what they like with them. So you didn't them have to worry about any other laws either if you wanted to lock the kid up you didn't have to go to court, a quick phone call to a high court judge. But also if, if the child was in say Richmond and you wanted to stick him in a childrens' home in North Wales no problem, you just took them up there. [BILL] Yeah? [CHRIS] So nobody would know where that child had gone, and if you've got somebody like NAYPIC asking questions you just threaten them with contempt [BILL] Yeah? [CHRIS]I've lost count of the number of times that NAYPIC, Mary Moss, and myself gtt a letter from from a Director of Social Serviecs threatening us with jail for contempt, for daring to talk to a ward of court. Errr they would... [BILL] So that was saying that's our kid leave it alone go away you can't talk to our kid, end of story. And also, y'know, if we go back not so many years, I mean, especially if you're looking at 50s, 60s, 70s, it was very errrm, like for, if you had a daughter and she was to errr get pregnant or have a kid it was like a shame on the family wasn't it, big time, they was doing it in Ireland, taking the kids straight from the mothers [CHRIS] The Magdalene laundries [BILL] The Magdalene sisters, yeah. So, yknow, in those days they were even more vulnerable because what the parents wanted was, just get the kid away from our family, this is our daughter, that kid, you can't have a kid – so the kid would go and be taken away, and [CHRIS] Out of sight, out of mind. [BILL] Yeah. So what I'd like to say, is errrm, really, we need victims to come forward, they gotta come forward in their droves because there are droves of them out there, that are still suffering and we need them to come forward, but I've been told by people they phone the police and they, the Police are saying, 'get in touch with us, get in touch with us if you've got any information' they're doing it but... it's making it so difficult, it's not as easy as the Police are pretending, and the press are putting it across, the national media. [CHRIS] It's very hard for victims because you've got to put yourself in the position of a victim if, what used to happen, what we found, certainly back at NAYPIC, if, say somebody was in a children's home or in a community was making porno pictures involving young boys; [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] Now the Police would have raids say, and arrest everybody there, so you'd have the guy who was making, behind the camera, who was making the videos would get nicked for making the porn videos, but say the two boys who would be having sex in front of the camera if one was say thirteen and the other was fifteen, the older boy there would get arrested for sexual offences against the younger boy. So even though he was a victim he would be classed as an abuser. [BILL] Hmm. So they fucked em in more ways than one. [CHRIS] Oh absolutely, so you just victimise victims, all the time. So in terms of trying to get victims of that ype of abuse to come forward and talk, they wouldn't because... [BILL] Why weren't they dealing with this Chris, is it because it's the lower class kids, it's all lower class kids isn't it, 99.9 percent of them are lower class kids. So there is, you're also looking at it, as far as I'm concerned, like almost a racism there, a racist culture. You know what I mean? 40:14 [CHRIS] It was very much like that [BILL] Like we are shit, we are shit [CHRIS] Right, so [BILL] Doddington [CHRIS] we found that y'know, very poor street kids from estates like Doddington, were also being used as rent boys, at Elm Guest House. Now if I come back to NAYPIC [BILL] Can I just go back on that when you're talking about Doddington you're bringing in another children's home into it [CHRIS] No no not children's home I'm talking about a sink estate, I'm talking about our kids off the street, ordinary children, it wasn't just kids in care, it's poor working class deprived children [BILL] But what I would also like to say is there was a very big case that was covered up, Margaret Hodges she was invovled in that cover up, and err, where was it, that was in Islington, [CHRIS] Islington [BILL] A big case, and the kids were being taken from Islington out to Jersey to Haut de la Garenne and I would implore you all errrm y'know to watch a fild called Sun Sea and Satan, that PienMash films, that we made, we went out to Jersey for two weeks. Right, so Doddington. [CHRIS] Sorry I'm, anyway, they were also, the Elm Guest House, I'll try and bring it back on track. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] It, because of the involvment of Special Branch and because of the security service invovlement bear in mind we were an advice agency, an advocay agent for children, for young people, we would have kids coming to the office looking for help, looking for advice, but we were under serveillance by Special Branch, we had Special Branch, armed Special Branch Officers, in the car, actually frightening off young people coming to us. [BILL] So [CHRIS] Physically stopping [BILL] So at NAYPIC, Special Branch was stopping children from coming to you with their problems. [CHRIS] It got so bad at one point we actually had to go and use a community centre to meet young people. It was at that point because I was the adult advisor I had to think about the welfare and safety bear in mind it was a group of young people, it was groups all round the country, I had to give consideration to their safety. So I went back to Carol Kasir and I said look 'If you want us to proceed with this and you want us to do something about it [BILL] I.e get her child out of care [CHRIS] Out of care, and protect the younger kids I need evidence, I need whatever evidence you've got that you say to me 'all these people used to attend the Kings and Queens parties' or were using the facilities, I need to know what you've got. She, I think in March, yeah March 1990, she agreed to meet me and I went along to her flat in Richmond where she was living at the time, and in the flat she had a huge big cardboard box and in that cardboard box there were lots of documents there was some video tapes and other stuff in there, and it was at that point that she gave me the guest house registers, the paying, bank paying in books showing the money she'd received [BILL] So the guset house register had everyone's name that was going there but they weren't using their real names. 43:30 [CHRIS] Weren't using their real names, but by this time of course we knew who a lot of the aliases that people like Leon Brittan and Cyril Smith were using [BILL] Cliff Richard [CHRIS] Errr Cliff Ricahrd was there as a guest I can't say he abused children there was no evidence [BILL] But he was there [CHRIS] He stayed there yeah [BILL] He definitely stayed there, Cliff Ricahrd? [CHRIS] Yes [BILL] And what name did he go under on the book? [CHRIS] Oh I can't remember off the top off my head [BILL] Was it Gladys or something? [CHRIS] No Gladys was the nickname of his boyfrined Norman. [BILL] Cliff Richard's boyfriend? [CHRIS] Yeah Norman yeah [BILL] Norman was his boyfriend [CHRIS] Yeah [BILL] And they used to go to Elm House, course we've not heard, he's not been nicked has he [CHRIS] No he's not, and there's no evidence in it that there is in any way, I mean he was just using it as a guest house. [BILL] And if there was it's gone [CHRIS] Well, maybe you're right Bill I don't know [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] But coming back to what was in the box, now, she also had about six video cassettes in there and she had a shoe box full of photographs and there were two types of photos, there were instamatic type photographs y'know with those it would print out the bottom [BILL] Yeah you can peel it off [CHRIS] And there were normal 35 mill photogrpahs so the photographs that had been taken in the facilities were the ordinary 35 mills standard photo. The photos from the Kings and Queens parties were the instamatic photos [BILL] Right [CHRIS] So she showed me I think it was eight photographs in total of people, now it was two of Leon Brittan, there was errr, one of Harvey Proctor [BILL] Member of Parliament [CHRIS] Member of Parliament, there was another one of a very well known industrial financial guy there was a whole series of photographs and she had hundreds more in this show box, she wouldn't give them to me. I said, so I said to her, after a lot of wheeling and dealing, [BILL] Can we just explain, just give me a description of the Leon Brittan photograph that you saw? [CHRIS] The Leon Brittyan photograph he was wearing, naked apart from like a little apron, and one of those waitress's caps, y'know what I mean, [BILL] O right so he had a maid's [CHRIS] A maid's outfit [BILL] A maid's pinny, a maid's hat [CHRIS] With aboy aged about 12 sitting on his lap. [BILL] What was the boy wearing? [CHRIS] Nothing [BILL] So the boy was naked [CHRIS] The boy was naked [BILL] Could you see the boy's genitalia? [CHRIS] Yeah. He was about twelve years old, it was an obscene photograph by any body's standards [BILL] Yeah absolutely [CHRIS] But Carol [BILL] The Home Secretary [CHRIS] Yeah but, Carol Kasir as I keep trying to tell people was not some sort of innocent victim in all this, she wasa conniving, cunning, bitch of a woman, [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] She really was, she knew exactly what she was doing so she would only give us enough to keep us involved, if you know what I mean [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] To keep on our good side, for want of a better phrase. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] And I said to her 'It's not good enough Carol I can't just y'know' [BILL] unless you give me the photos [CHRIS] unless you give me the stuff. She wouldn't do it. What she did eventually agree to do I think about six, eight weeks later she said I could come round and photograph them myself. [BILL] Right [CHRIS] But unfortunately of course shortly after that she was murdered, so [BILL] Right. So you never got to go round and photograph them but when you was there you were probably being recorded and bugged anyway by the secret services [CHRIS] They were sitting outside [BILL] I know that's right [CHRIS] They were sitting in a car outside, and there is a little story about that, I mean this shows you how contemptuous the security services and Special Branch were of people, they knew that they were run, they could do whatever they liked [BILL] In those days [CHRIS] In those days [BILL] We're talking about before the internet etcetera [CHRIS] Exactly. What I would have given for a mobile phone with a camera on it [BILL] Chris can we just jump to errr Carol Kasir cos you said like when she was murdered what was the errm the information that came out in the press 47:22 [CHRIS] Well [BILL] How she died [CHRIS] She allegedly according to the coroner she died from an overdose of insulin [BILL] Cos she was diabetic [CHRIS] Which was absolute rubbish [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] Really was rubbish. If you read, I was at the coroner I gave evidence [BILL] Why do you say it's rubbish, tell me about the insulin then [CHRIS] Yeah I'm just going to tell you. I was a witness, at the coroner's court, so I was there for all the proceedings. Now, the pathologist report was quite clear that the err oldest syringe mark on her body was 72 hours old, and that was the last mark on her body of a syringe. Every doctor I spoke to, I spoke to a GP I spoke to the pathologists at the Kings College Hospital, they were all saying the same thing; if you overdose with insulin by injection, you'd be dead within an hour. There is no way you'd live for 72 hours 48:20 [BILL] Right [CHRIS] So also a question mark about where errr this syringe mark was, which was on her bottom, and the evidence form the gen... GP was that she never, was never given insulin that way, and even though he'd been to see her, he had injected her arm not her bottom. So where that injection mark had come from I don't know. There was also the alleged suicide note. Now, everyboduy that had read it myslef, Mary at NAYPIC, her friends her family, [BILL] Mary's another lady who works at NAYPIC, [CHRIS] Mary Moss [BILL] Mary Moss [CHRIS] She was the worker at NAYPIC, a really good guy, and we all knew it was not Carol's handwriting, Carold didn't write that way she didn't , it wasn't her use of language [BILL] So it was bad fake [CHRIS] It wasn't even a, it wasn't even a bad fake, it was just rubbish. The only person who said it was in her hand writing was a man called David Isset [?checkname?] [Cut] 49:21 [CHRIS] Now David Issett [?checkname?] was a paedophile, if you look at he Mary Moss file that's been put on line of all the documents there, you'll see a, you'll see there that I phoned errrm Richmond Police and Richmond Soclial Services department when I found out that Issett was in fact living at home with his partner and four year old son because there was a court order banning him from living within half a mile of his home and his son, because Issett and a guy, a gangster called Puddles, Patsy Puddles, errr [BILL] That rings a bell actually [CHRIS] Yeah, had been abusing the four year old in their hot tub at Puddles' house, which was why there was a court order on him. So you had this, and he was ad rug addict. And a errr an alcoholic, and a thouroughly nasty piece of work, but he was the only one person who said that the hand writing was Carol Kasir's [BILL] On her suicide note [CHRIS] On her suicide note, and the coroner seemed to accept his version, now don't foget the coroner 50:30 [BILL] Not really what you would call a credible witness [CHRIS] No, but the coroner, funnily enough, is the same coroner who did the errr Princess Diana inquest and also the Blair Peach inquest, in other words [interrupting] [BILL] while we're talking about that, if I can just, the Princess Diana, I'll do it that camera, is that in shot, is that camera in shot [Holding up Daily Express front page displaying the headline “PRINCESS DIANA WAS MURDERED”] [CHRIS] [Pointing] Doctor Burton [OFF CAMERA] [incoherrent] [BILL] So there we've got, they're saying there 'Princess Diana was murdered'. [CHRIS] Yeah. But Doctor Burton was the guy who did her inquest so he was known as being a safe pair of hands, someone you can trust to come up with the right verdict. Now at this point you've met Clive Goldman [?check name?] who's a private detective who was looking at this stuff, bless his cotton socks he's a lovely bloke as you know, and he kept bouncing up and down in the coroner's inquest saying 'That's not true, what are you talking about?' and the coroner kept saying to him 'Will you sit down please and be quiet Mr Gordon [?check name?] [BILL] But he wouldn't [CHRIS] But he wouldn't [BILL] Cos he's a good guy [CHRIS] Cos he's a good guy, and I started protesting [BILL] And he's now 78 [CHRIS] He's now 78. I started protesting about the note, Clive kept screaming and shouting at the coroner so in the end the coroner said 'I'll adjorn the inquest until August, and I'll have Scotland Yard's forensic handwriting experts take a look at the note, to see whether or not it's in her handwriting [BILL] it was her handwriting yeah [CHRIS] So when the August, when the inquest was errr reopened again on the 22nd August Burton the coroner came in and he said 'Right I've issued a written verdict there's nothing more to say.' bang case closed. [BILL] So wait till August and that was it [CHRIS] Nothing so, to the, to this day I do not know what the forensic handwriting experts at Scotland Yard had to say nobody did because Burton never told us. [Interrupting] [BILL] Right so [CHRIS] But the interesting [BILL] Now [Interrupting, holding up finger] [CHRIS] Sorry, Bill [BILL] Yeah go on [CHRIS] the one interesting thing about all else, when Tom Watson asked a question in the House of Commons recently [BILL] Member of Parliament [CHRIS] Member of Parliament, he also asked about the use of D-Notices. D-Notices are notices that they're supposed to be advisory, but basically the government doesn't like a story in the newspapers about to print, it'll slap a D-Notice [BILL] A D-Notice is a gagging order [CHRIS] is a gagging order. Now when Mary Moss and I left the coroner's court the entire world's press was outside, obviously it was a very, very big story [BILL] Absolutely [CHRIS] Because we'd stood in the witness box, we'd named Leon Brittan we'd named Harvey Proctor, we'd told the inquest all the evidence we had about who'd been involved at the Elm Guest House, so by any stretch of the imagination it was big news story. When we got outside the coroner's court there was, they were all there, BBC, ITV, Channel Four, Sky, you name it. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] Not one single British television station, radio station or newspaper interviewed myself or Mary. We were interviewed by Canadian Broadcasting Radio and a Japanese television station, and [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] I spotted the BBC reporter who I knew and I went across to him and I said 'What's going on?' and he said 'D-Notice Chris' [BILL] D-Notice [CHRIS] So D-Notices were used [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] That's why there was very little coverage of that inquest in the national press at, in June, and it wasn't as, sorry in July, and, there was a little bit of coverage in some of the press when the inquest was resumed in August. [CUT] 54:23 [BILL] Now when it was, two years after Carole Kasir died and you were continuing your fight against Elm Guest House and many other investigations Chris as you do, thank God for people like you who are about, and three bullets came through your kitchen window, two years after that [CHRIS] [appears to become uncomfortable, nodding] Uhu, well yeah [BILL] Tell us about that [CHRIS] Well, I don't want to talk too, because I don't want to make this about me, but I mean obviously [BILL] But you, you've been investigating it, y;know [CHRIS] It was obviously, when you're dealing with the sort of people that we're dealing with you're not just dealing with the Security Service you're dealing with, don't forget international child pornography trade [CUT] 55:09 [CHRIS] We found out y'know that there was a connected with the Monday Club and Spartacus. There was a company called Tofts [?checkname?] Travels Limited which was physically taking boys in care out to Holland [BILL] Or wherever [CHRIS] Well they were definitely going to Holland [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] And it was in Holland we had quite a lot of evidence that snuff movies were being made [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] Now, y'know, we tried as an organisation to be as professional and as as resonable as we could and we checked out everything that we told to the best of our ability. Now, I didn't know whether snuff movies existed or not it wasn't my area of expertise. So I in fact talked to, and I think in the NAYPIC log book which, which we gave to Fernbridge, Fernbridge took off me, that's Operation Fernbridge the Police investigation that's looking at Grafton and Elm. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] And I spoke to Interpol, Europol, the FBI, any organisation errr the United Nations Child Exploitation and the Eruopean one about snuff movies, and the official view in 1990 of all those organisations including the Metropolitan Police was that snuff movies did not exist. [BILL] Yeah [CHRIS] They were an urban myth [BILL] And children weren't buried where they were killed [CHRIS] Exactly [BILL] In children's homes [CHRIS] So the official view of that was that it just didn;t exist. 56:45 [BILL] Right. Well, that is opening up know, because there were many snuff movies made and many children killed. Ok. So, I know you don't like talking about it, but let me just round it off and then we're going to move on to where we are now. [CHRIS] Right. [BILL] But the point is you did have three bullets come through your window... [CHRIS] Yeah. [BILL] It took the police an hour to get there and you heard nothing. [CHRIS] Yeah. [BILL] You also... [CHRIS] And one PC turned up. [BILL] And one PC turned up. And... so you also presented this evidence, yourself and, um... [CHRIS] Mary... Moss. [BILL] Mary. On three different occasions. [CHRIS] Oh, on numerous occasions. I mean, you know, if you... The whole point... If you got evidence for something and you got kids who have been abused, who do you go to? You have to go to the authorities. [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] The local council,... [BILL] But you've been there and they've done nothing. [CHRIS] Well, exactly. Who else is there? [BILL] And on many occasions, so you keep giving this evidence and now... [CHRIS] Now nothing. [BILL] Right. So, here we are. What's the date? XXXXXX, what's the date? [XXXXXX] It's the Seventh of September, 2013. [BILL] Right. So, we all know that. Where are we now? [CHRIS] Well, we are now, um... As a result, I believe of Tom Watson MP, who asked questions of the Prime Minister in the House, I was approached by Tom Watson. Because I retired years ago. I'm 67 now, so I've been out. [BILL] You're looking good for it. [CHRIS] Thank you for that. But, I... [BILL] My pleasure. (laughs) [CHRIS] (laughs) So, I've retired. I far as I was concerned, this was all in the past for me. But, I was approached by Tom Watson, who wanted me. So I went up to see him in the House of Commons and he told me basically what we've been talking about now. Everything I knew about Grafton, about Elm Guest House and about a lot of other abuse. [BILL] And what was his response? [CHRIS] Oh, he was shocked and horrified. [BILL] And what has he done? [CHRIS] He... He did... He was instrumental in getting the Metropolitan Police to establish Operation Fairbank, which was the original investigation to look... established, I think, in October last year, that was going to... a scoping exercise to try and see... [BILL] What was Fairbank about? [CHRIS] Fairbank... That's what I'm saying. It was a scoping exercise to see what information was available. As a result of Fairbank, they set up Operation Fernbridge to Chief Inspector Paul Settle... [BILL] And that... Operation Fernbridge is solely about the guest house. [CHRIS] Solely about Elm Guest House and about Grafton. [BILL] Yes. [CHRIS] Although it has spawned... I mean these operations seem to spawn like rabbits. There is now yet another investigation coming out, that called Operation Cowi-...weird name... Cayente or something like that. [BILL] So, Tom Watson... [CHRIS] So I tell Tom Watson. So I was approached by DCI Settle, who came to see me at my home, I think, in January of this year. [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] He wanted, obviously, to know what I knew, and he wanted any documentation that I might still have. Well, as it happens, I still had the... You know, they could not book them, so there's a lot of stuff I held. So, I had the original charge sheets for... Not copies, but the originals, of Carole Kasir's charge sheet. So, I... [BILL] Have you still got it? [CHRIS] Yeah. [BILL] Good. [CHRIS]Yeah. Um, because I felt that stuff was important, because it... it... The whole... The whole of this thing hangs around, it seems to me, whether or not they raided the house under the Prevention of Terrorism Act or under vice legislation. Now, Settle and Fernbridge are saying that it was, that... They're towing the Party line. They're saying it was an operation carried out by local police under vice legislation. [BILL] Where'd the Terrorism thing come in? [CHRIS] Well, hang on a sec, I'll get to that. But, this is the line being peddled by... Now, I asked him point blank, whether or not there is evidence. 'If you're going to say this. There has to be evidence.' But apparently, the police records of the raid are no longer available today. They've disappeared. [BILL] Disappeared. [CHRIS] Not surprisingly. [BILL] Disintegrated. [CHRIS] Disintegrated. Gone to the... [BILL] Spontaneous combustion. [CHRIS] Warehouse in the Sky. [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] And the thing that shocked me most of all was that even the records of their trial at the Old Bailey no longer exist. I didn't... [BILL] What? Gone. At least... [CHRIS] I didn't realise until Settle told me this, that the, um... her Majesty's Courts and Tribunal Services only keep court records for ten years. After ten years, they're destroyed. I mean, I couldn't believe this, because... I mean, you, I,... [BILL] I don't believe it. [CHRIS] All of us. You go to the public archives, and you can read about the trial of Dr. Krippet, a hundred years ago. [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] In detail. But... [BILL] They know that. They don't want people reading about them in a hundred years time. [CHRIS] But what happened in 1982 doesn't exist anymore. They can point out what happened in 1912, but not in 1982! [BILL] Yeah. [CHRIS] Extraordinary. [BILL] Well, there you go. Anyway, so, uh, we're being um... I'm getting to wrap it up. Director...uh, yeah? Are we done on this one? Well. Ok, so... We're going to wrap it up on that. [CHRIS] Can I just...? I just want to bring it up... very quickly, up to date. Um, a couple of weeks ago, I was trying to get back a copy of the NAYPIC logbooks. So I approached Fernbridge, and I asked Fernbridge if I could have a copy of the logbook back. They said yes. They'll get a DC to drop it off. Nobody turned up. They then rang me up, and they told me a Detective Sergeant would be popping in around. Never turned up. I followed out... I went to go out to the shops. When I opened the front door. And standing on my doorstep is DCI Paul Settle himself. He was 'passing by.' [BILL] Just passing by. Popped in to see you. All these years. [CHRIS] Come and see me. [BILL] After all these years. [CHRIS] Have a cup of tea and a chat. Yup. [BILL] (to audience) Yup. Well, listen. We're going to finish it now. This is a very brave man. This man was a witness at Carole Kasir's inquest. The police have recently been to see him. He's talked to MPs. He's talked to everyone. (to Chris) And you are in a very precarious position. [CHRIS] Nyah. [BILL] So we... Well we... You don't think so because you're TOO brave. And we're going to get this out as soon as we can. And hopefully that will give you some kind of protection, because... [CHRIS] I think... [BILL] Let me just finish first, because I've been... You know... [CHRIS] I've had enough of this (???) , Bill. [BILL] Good. [CHRIS] We need people like yourself and other good people on the line who got all the story. They got all the facts. So whatever happens to me, they won't be allowed to cover it up. [BILL] Well, let me just finish up with something personal then. Alright? (To Camera) I FUCKING HATE THE NEXT-DOOR MEDIA. [CHRIS] (laughs) [BILL]You've been covering up this shit for so many years. And you reporters. Where's Tom Savage? What's happened to Tom Savage? Tom Savage came and saw the original interview that I've done with Chris Fay. And all of the sudden, Tom has been suspended. [CHRIS] Nicked. [BILL] Nicked. Under another charge, nothing to do with us, even though he went out to Cyprus and he was investigating child pornography, snuff movies, looking for David Hamilton-Grant. David Hamilton-Grant is supposed to be dead, but he's not dead. He's alive and kicking and he's out in Turkey. And he was making pornographic films of children out in Turkey. Because where you have to pay 500 quid for a kid here, he used to be able to get them for a fiver out there. [CROSSFADE] [BILL] Thank you very much, Chris. Love ya! [CHRIS] You too, mate. [BILL] God bless you, bro. 64:53 END CREDITS: Thanks to everyone involved in the making of this film who wish to remain anonymous. GOD BLESS ALL VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS Pie and Mash Films 2013 www.piemashfilms.com Also listen to the ex British Intelligence agent Andrea Davison's interview with The People TV  she confirms what Chris Fay says about establishment cover-up of child abuse